tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post2552497093724842173..comments2024-03-23T19:52:53.611-07:00Comments on Strategies for Stewards: from woods to prairies : Gray Goldenrod – How important might it be in the Greater Scheme Of Things?Stephen Packardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01811489977185760340noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-26126071388220072182016-09-26T23:13:47.380-07:002016-09-26T23:13:47.380-07:00I think it would be a good idea to gather up this ...I think it would be a good idea to gather up this and other observations, and field knowledge, that raises and partly answers questions for which more controlled experiments would be illuminating. Might make a great clearinghouse of ideas for grad students and researchers. I think Chicago Wilderness was best when it focused on encouraging that sort of feedback. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05798354903796819607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-73019924989865348942016-09-26T15:45:01.750-07:002016-09-26T15:45:01.750-07:00I acknowledge that repeated haying could cause the...I acknowledge that repeated haying could cause the loss of certain species. This is the reason I mentioned Mr. Helzer, in his book, discusses some disadvantages of haying including that it is non-selective. In contrast, the scything of taller grasses and weedy species that Stephen does is selective and should not cause a loss of desired species.<br /><br />Although woody plants do get cut back to the ground from cutting, most of them (accept juniper) resprout vigorously.<br /><br />“Mowing can also increase woody plants three to one.”<br /><br />“Restoring the Tallgrass Prairie: An Illustrated Manual for Iowa and the Upper Midwest”, pp. 52, Shirley Shirley<br /><br />Ms. Shirley was comparing using mowing for prairie management compared to burning.<br /><br />Indeed, haying or scything during the growing season will weaken the existing vegetation much more than dormant season mowing. Weakening the vegetation will benefit species that are trying to get established. This is good if the species that are benefited are orchids and gentians, but not so good if undesired woody species increase.<br /><br />This discussion is not a thought experiment. I have personally observed the above in my sedge meadow garden. In areas where I “selectively graze”, to quote Mr. Helzer, the orchids I have planted grow better. In fact, I think if I did not cut the sedges back once each year the orchids would disappear from my garden. This is the kind of difficulty that often occurs when trying to grow a species away from its natural ecosystem. In contrast, other species that I do not want to increase also take advantage of the weakened state of the sedges and must be removed. It is not only cutting, but also trampling by wildlife that creates areas where the sedges are weakened in my garden. There are an especially large amount of Hibiscus moscheutos seedlings emerging in the areas impacted by cutting or trampling.<br /><br />A good place to observe actually woody species taking advantage of weakened grasses is in lawns that are mowed but do not have herbicide applied. These lawns are full of bonsaied woody species just waiting for their chance to grow tall and shade out the grasses.<br /><br />Fire can reduce woody species, but once woody species get established even annual fires do not always eliminate them. Therefore, care must be taken when reducing the vigor of existing vegetation to make sure the ecosystem moves in the direction you want and not away from it.James McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813312887957290703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-62053289665193474232016-09-26T01:50:03.435-07:002016-09-26T01:50:03.435-07:00Woody plants would get chopped up in the haying. ...Woody plants would get chopped up in the haying. I have a feeling that Spring Lake Nature Preserve was hayed for 'marsh grass.' Beautiful soil, what Liam when he visited it referred to as Olde soil, very rich in aggregates, and the small sedges and wildflowers of spring are beautiful, and the small wildflowers of autumn are beautiful, and the wind-blown seeds of summer plants are abundant and beautiful.... but a lot of species are missing, probably cut down over the years from the farmer's hay mower. No native legumes to speak of. No blazing star (mostly). No rattlesnake master. No flowering spurge. No coneflower. So I think bison would be better than mowing. Excellent sweetgrass, dropseed, sedges and grasses, marsh betony, joe pye, mountain mint, indian plantain, yellow-star grass, used to be tons of gentians. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05798354903796819607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-91351909853064247032016-09-26T01:41:51.752-07:002016-09-26T01:41:51.752-07:00I wonder if these experiments could be done in fol...I wonder if these experiments could be done in folks' garden plots, with the right mix of species, and homeowners daily tending/observing. Weaver et al built underground frames, grew prairie plants in the soil insdie the deep frames with the plan to then dig them up, wash off the dirt and observe the root structure. beautiful photos came from that. Wish that book was still available. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05798354903796819607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-81240569058367037962016-09-21T20:20:39.342-07:002016-09-21T20:20:39.342-07:00The grazing issue is complicated and one that I wa...The grazing issue is complicated and one that I want to let Stephen present before discussing. <br /><br />However, haying appears to be much less controversial. A number of preserves containing very rare species were used for haying.<br /><br />"In Europe, biologists are finding that multiple decades of annual haying can actually improve plant diversity by reducing nitrogen levels that favor a few dominant plants"<br /><br />"The Ecology and Management of Prairies in the Central United States", pp. 92, Chris Helzer<br /><br />Mr. Helzer follows the above quote by talking about the disadvantages of haying. One problem mentioned is haying is non-selective. This is not a concern that applies to Stephen's method. The only potential problem I can imagine is woody species might colonize in certain situations if haying is used to weaken dominating grasses.James McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813312887957290703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-43085231016209438052016-09-20T05:51:12.719-07:002016-09-20T05:51:12.719-07:00Yes, well put. The scythe "may have helped in...Yes, well put. The scythe "may have helped increase the diversity by allowing light and warmth down to the ground where the seeds and young seedlings were beginning their life." <br /><br />Yes, scythes can be very selective. With a slender, very sharp, long-pointed scythe, a practiced person can cut the tall grasses at the base while leaving the orchids, gentians and all else standing, even less than an inch away.<br /><br />There is much more to be learned about the good and bad of bison management on prairie remnants. I'm researching that for another blog post. All factual input appreciated - from anyone who has it. Stephen Packardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01811489977185760340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-27867253641529527842016-09-20T05:16:49.572-07:002016-09-20T05:16:49.572-07:00Betony seems to be very effective in reducing tall...Betony seems to be very effective in reducing tall grass cover - in some cases. In others, it seems not to take. This is something else that deserves experiment and study. Stephen Packardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01811489977185760340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-8385705632024471912016-09-20T05:15:41.026-07:002016-09-20T05:15:41.026-07:00Deb, good questions. First, the trails in this cas...Deb, good questions. First, the trails in this case were not used for fire breaks, so that's not an issue. But the question of "how tight" is a good one. I'm going by my memory; the plots in this case were not marked on the ground - except "ecologically." That is, I scythed the tall goldenrod, and subsequently the scythed area "looked distinctly different." I could not tell you today exactly where the original boundaries were from memory. I actually have measurements in my files, but I haven't checked them. I'd like to. Thus, this experiment and my conclusions would be a lot more meaningful re-did the measurements and discussed the dates and numbers of the mowings. I hope to do more of that than I seem to have had time for in the past. I hope to do more.Stephen Packardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01811489977185760340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-1672762431787319682016-09-19T20:28:39.114-07:002016-09-19T20:28:39.114-07:00The use of the scythe in the one experiment caught...The use of the scythe in the one experiment caught my attention. Not just once but returning to be sure the grass remained short and subdued. This reminded me of something.<br /><br />Prior to the near extermination of the bison by the Europeans a similar disturbance occurred. The bison would seek out newly burned prairie to graze the tender young grass shoots as they emerged. During the course of the summer they would return again and again to nibble this tender grass and eat around the established forbs. Thus allowing light and warmth to the forbs they had avoided.<br /><br />The scything experiment suggest that this activity may have helped increase the diversity by allowing light and warmth down to the ground where seeds and young seedlings were beginning their life. As intended, plants that can't get started in the cool, dark places between grass, could now thrive free of the grass plant shade. This experiment mimicked a process long established in the prairie/ savanna ecosystem. The process of bison grazing.<br /><br />Will the bison grazing plains at Nachusa explode with diversity in the next few years in part from this simple disturbance?<br /><br />Should we look at mimicking this natural disturbance by the bison with more use of the scythe?<br /><br />Can one use a scythe with the precision bison eat around forbs?<br /><br />It might be good to add this tool to our restoration toolbox and see if we can repeat some of the success in increasing diversity that Stephen observed.Paul Swansonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-18925483618816574822016-09-17T21:34:16.325-07:002016-09-17T21:34:16.325-07:00The thriving strip along the trail... is that a tr...The thriving strip along the trail... is that a trail that is also used as a burn break? I know the track record of 1/2 every year holds pretty good for Somme Prairie Grove. Of course though right next to the brake the effects of the fire are a little different... the point where the fire spreads apart, more quickly flapped out, sometimes hosed down. How tight is the match between thriving and scythed area? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05798354903796819607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-75916571491738954692016-09-17T00:42:32.200-07:002016-09-17T00:42:32.200-07:00I believe what you are observing is the biology of...I believe what you are observing is the biology of invasion. Intact ecosystems have an amazingly complex connectedness that results in diversity. Although numerous species are a component of an intact ecosystems, when isolated from those ecosystems these same species can completely dominate. It should be remembered that individual species with large coefficients of conservatism are not necessarily indications of successful restoration. It is the combination in an index like the FQI that truly measures ecosystem function. Some of the interactions that are needed to maintain diversity can be restored. An example is sowing seed of Pedicularis canadensis to reduce grass dominance. Another example is sowing Cuscuta glomerata to reduce dominance of certain members of the Aster or mint families. However, we must be honest in our inability to return the entire unfathomable diversity that constitutes an intact ecosystem. Only great amounts of time can do what has taken great amounts of time to create.<br /> <br />I must wonder if the strategy of eliminating conservative plants that tend to dominate when beginning a restoration will prove to be a fruitless effort over time. It would seem more prudent to let these plants dominate until their day of glory has past and then establish weaker growing species that make a community diverse. However, no one should fault you for using your trusty scythe as a surrogate for what cannot be repaired. The substitute that is created through restoration efforts is better than what would result from doing nothing at all.James McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813312887957290703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-3360946855709602592016-09-16T19:36:52.129-07:002016-09-16T19:36:52.129-07:00Great observations. I wonder about the role of bet...Great observations. I wonder about the role of betony, especially with respect to the grasses.<br />KentAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13901924163439103526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-34999828576516901142016-09-16T13:35:42.786-07:002016-09-16T13:35:42.786-07:00Deb, you make good points. No doubt different proc...Deb, you make good points. No doubt different processes are responsible for this species' presence in Grade A remnants vs. some restorations vs. old fields. In my experience, the seed is long dispersed by the time of the fires, and the seed (of many species at least) seems to know how to get down through the thatch and into the cool soil before at least the spring burns come through.Stephen Packardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01811489977185760340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-201378124228558245.post-84077537767962725872016-09-16T09:22:20.087-07:002016-09-16T09:22:20.087-07:00Steve, you ask great questions and highlight the ...Steve, you ask great questions and highlight the value of seeing old areas with new eyes. I wish more folks maintained long term monitoring stations that could contribute to a data bank of observations that could be used to answer many questions. Looking at what you present now, the difference in mowed vs unmowed portion is striking. My guess is gray goldenrod is a good survivor and competitor in dry, sunny possibly hot areas, hard to say it's preferences for nutrients as it grows with nitrogen fixers and also abused ag fields with some non-mycorrhizal plants. My recollection of other goldenrods is they can associate well with soil fungal networks that feed on decomposing woody roots. Over the years of strict prairie you lose the dead roots you cut decades earlier, at which point change may occur. But the mowing distinction is very telling. Gray goldenrod is short and I imagine it's seeds easily trapped and burned up when the grass is thick around it, not to mention light seed is pushed away from upward air or hot burned spots with high fuel, and eventually settle out downwind in areas where the wind is blocked, it is trapped by an obstacle like a tree, or temperature or wind subside due to topography or ground temperature. Might do well to pay attention to wafting seeds next prairie burn. It persists as a clone but seeding would not be expected to return to the same footprint. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03786685166834369250noreply@blogger.com